Guth Family History & Genealogy

From my correspondence with Princess Susanna Torquatus von Raditsch:

You wrote to me about this part of the family.

"Stibor zo Stiboric dies 1434 and has no heritors, so for short time comes Modra to ownership of Pavol, son of Ulrich of Cerveny Kamen. He hold Modra only two years and it comes to hands of family Orsagh z Guty. Michal Orsagh de Guth, Modra is ownership of this family over 130 years."

I believe this part possibly has something to do with the information you mentioned above.

My Grandfather, as his father and his father and his father before him for centuries were all named Prince Michael Torquatus Von Radic from the Gussich clan.

So Gussich, Gussic (Guth) are all same as family as Radic, Raditsch, Radik, Radich.

In my branch of our family's tree there is a connection to what was known as the Gussich (Gussic-Guth) clan. They were originally called the Kurják (Curiacus) family and were termed eventually as the Gussich family that were noted around 1298-1307.

The name Kurják (Curiacus) part of the surname I was told was derived because of where they came from and where they owned property and ruled. At the time after serving in Rome they purchased lands/ownership of the Island of Krk, Croatia. This Island belonged to my family for many centuries; ever since prior to the invasions and settlements from Hungary.

I was told as a child the ancient name for Krk was Kurycta. I was told my ancient Roman - Illyrian ancestors often refereed to it as the "Splendidissima Civitas Kuryctarum." During ancient Roman periods, the Island served as a place to take holiday for my family. The houses they built on this Island date back to 9th or 10th century A.D. However they found even earlier settlements on and around this place.

Here is another family story to share if you like with your readers about our family and what they stood for. Just so they can see what we are truly made of.

Manlius (fem. Manlia) was the nomen (name) of the gens (clan) Manlia, a Patrician family of ancient Rome, from Tusculum, one of the oldest of the city.

The name Gussich (Gussic - Guth) derived from the part of the family's branch that belonged to Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, a Patrician of the Roman Republic who served as consul in 390 B.C. The attached surname of "Capitolinus" was because he ruled and settled in the capital of Rome (his home was named Capitolinus).

His story was that in 390 B.C. Rome was being besieged by the Gauls of Brennus who were attempting to scale the Capitoline Hill during the late night hours. He awoke by the cackling of geese and rushed to the spot where they were and saw the Gauls nearing the top of the hill. He grabbed the first Gaul he could get his hands on and threw him down on top of the assailants causing many to fall to their deaths. His actions roused the rest of his soldiers who ran to his aid. Thus he saved Rome's capital from being slaughtered in the middle of the night by his alertness.

The word Gussic (Gussich - Guth) I was told comes from the word "Goose." The dogs that were supposed to act as the alarm failed to do their jobs. As a result of this they were slaughtered and the geese were then blessed by their pagan priests. From that day forward for many years after to celebrate this occasion in history, the Romans paraded the geese on purple and gold pillows throughout Rome and every years slaughtered dogs as a sacrifice to the God's of the Sacred Golden Geese of the Manlii.
Several years after Marcus Manlius Capitolinus saw a friend of his, who became a Centurion, led to prison for debt. He had gone to the prison to speak to his old friend. There he saw the treatment of other people and he was disgusted by what he saw. He saw young Mother's with their Children, starving and beaten badly. One mother told him she had to allow herself to be raped by the soldiers to get them to feed her hungary children. He made a promise to himself about the people he spoke to. He freed his friend which he did with his own money.
He then sold his estate to relieve these and other poor debtors. People saw him as their hero. This along with his previous heroics made many enemies for him. He found himself suddenly accused by the senate of embezzling public money. He was also charged with aspiring to Kingly power, and condemned by the comitia. He did not have the money to protect himself and do what normally someone would in his situation; pay off some Senators to save him. He had spent all of his money trying to save people that had no power to save him, but not until the assembly had adjourned to a place without the walls of the senate, where they could no longer see the Capitol which he had once saved.
His house on the Capitol (the origin of his surname) was destroyed, and the Manlii (Manlius Clan Members) had no power to help him. Afraid they would all be destroyed by the jealous and envious powerful Senators of Rome were completely helpless. Thus they promised that henceforth from that day forward, no Patrician Manlius should bear the name of "Marcus." This promise was kept since. To this very day, no person from our family line has been given the name "Marcus" as our way to honor his honorable memory.
Radic is again a part of this story because it involves the Slavic word "Rad" meaning happy or laughing. Thus many of our coat of arms depict the laughing Geese which is to represent that branch of the family directly related to Marcus Manlius Capitolinus son of Titus Manlius Imperiosus Torquatus who held three Consulships of Republican Rome in 347, 345, and 340 B.C. was son of Lucius Manlius.
Titus Manlius T.f. Torquatus (d. 299 BC) was a Patrician Roman Republican consul for 299 BC, elected along with a plebeian co-consul Marcus Fulvius Cn.f. Paetinus.
According to Livy (Book V: 11), Titus Manlius died of a fall from his horse, while preparing his troops to march into Etruria.
Titus Manlius Torquatus, was son of Titus (or Titus Manlius T.f. Torquatus), was Roman Republican consul 235 BC and 224 BC, censor 231 BC, and dictator 208 B.C.
There is also the part of this story of the family untold. There were was a story about one of the Manlius Torquatus, which one, memory escapes me at the moment. I will have to review notes I took when I was a young girl from the elders. This Manlius Torquatus ran into the jealousy and envy that they were gaining from the public's hearts. He was found hung from his neck because he could not bear the shame that was brought upon his name. My family's word has always meant something valuable to us. If we give our word (a promise) to do something, we will die to make good on that word. Honor means everything. A very old tradition in my family as you can see since before Jesus Christ.
You will find these stories but not completely told as the stories handed down from generation to generation by family as I have written above by (Livy v. 47; Plutarch, Camilus, 27).

The branch of the Gussich, Gussic that I am directly related to by blood is the one that my 3rd Great Grandmother Princess Katarina Turčitul (Turčič- Turčiči) of the Basarab clan who married by 3rd Great Grandfather Count Nicholas Josef Anton Frangipani (Frankopan) on January 2, 1820. My 2nd Great Grandfather is the "Count Nicholas Josef Jr., the second his eldest sons. Bartol (Bartul - Bartholomew - Barthol), the eldest had to meet with the elders of the family and went through a lot of trouble to finally receive approval for his marriage. However he because of the marriage, he had to renounce his title, lands and authority to rule under the Frangipani name. I believe he took the titles and lands and authority to rule from his new wife's family and thus all was passed down to my direct ancestor Nicholas Josef, Jr.
There is another thing to of interest in these records from the local registrars office that fortified the state archival records about this part of my family tree, my 2nd Great Grandfather (Maternal side), Josef Jr. married Maria Tihomiric (Tehomil - Tehomilic) with great blesings and arrangements of the family.
This side of the family has stories about their dependency and relationship to Attlia the Hun. From what I have read about their origins and verified through the migration records of this side of the family it is very possible that it is fact and not just family stories.
I researched and found this information: the Göktürks or Kök-Türks were a Turkic people of ancient Central Asia. Known in medieval Chinese sources as Tujue (); The Göktürks were under the leadership of Bumin Khan (d. 552) and his sons succeeded the Xiongnu as the main Turkic power in the region and took hold of the lucrative Silk Road trade.
The Göktürk rulers originated from the Ashina tribe, an Altaic people who lived in the northern corner of the area presently called Xinjiang. Under their leadership, the Göktürks rapidly expanded to rule huge territories in north-western China, North Asia and Eastern Europe (as far west as the Crimea). They were the first Turkic tribe known to use the name "Turk" as a political name.
T[h]ocomerius/Tihomir/Togomer/Totomer/Tugomir/Toq-Timur was thought to have been a Cuman/Romanian Prince (voivode) (c. 1290 – c. 1310), the father of Basarab I, the founder of the Principality of Wallachia.
Thocomerius is a rendition of Toctomerie/Tehomil, a genuine Cuman name found in Russian chronicles. He could also be identified with a minor Mongol prince, Toq-Timur, a son of Mongke-Timur (5th Khan of the Blue Horde), who lived in that area, as the eastern parts of Wallachia were under the hordes control.
Basarab I was an early ruler of the principality of Wallachia from perhaps as early as 1310 until 1352. He is sometimes referred to as Întemeietorul ("The Founder"), given his role in the creation of the state, together with his position as common ancestor of rulers in the Basarab dynasty.
Vlad III the Impaler; also known as Vlad Dracula is descendant of this man. He was born November or December, 1431 – December 1476 was Prince (voivode) of Wallachia, a former polity which is now part of Romania. His three reigns were in 1448, 1456–62, and 1476.
When I visited around 1996-1997 a couple of small villages, I was greeted nicely by most of the villagers. However when some of the real old villager discovered who I was, they came up to me and spit through their fingers in a very strange manner. When I asked the tourist guide why they had done this, he told me that they were insuring that I was not going to come after them in the middle of the night to suck their blood dry!
How strange that experience was! I felt like I stepped far back into time!

This is also part of my family's coats of arms that are the part that connect to Vlad the Impaler's side (direct Maternal side of my family); If you notice the third coat of arms which has the 2 Dragons which connect to each other. This is because of two family branches that interconnected directly with my branch. The Sacred Goose in the middle with the crown around the neck and over the entire coat of arms means ruling heirs of Princedom. Dragons were from the "Order of the Dragon."


We also share a similar coat of arms depiction with Michael the Brave from a Radic coat of arms. The bird in the middle holding the stone.


Mihnea Turcitul's official seal
All the best and very warm regards,
Princess Susanna Torquatus Von Radic


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Variants and hypotesis in my email:

Dear Cousin Susanna,

I am so amazed from genealogy you sent me, so it really goes back to Orsagh de Guth.

I know that in middle of Slovakia occurs family Guten, what could be variant and Guttenberg, who invented press of books could be descendant.

Goose, in Slovak or Czech is Hus! Husa is Goose, maybe Master Jan Hus, famous rebell, burned in Kostnica was descendant of this family.

So also to me came G to H, only possibility that Guth can be Huta, such exist surname and also some villages named after this surely noble family when had villages. Only possibility.

Kuric - I know here Kuric
occurs in Senkvice and Senkvice is Croatian settlement.

I thought Kuric is maybe from Kurucz.

Turcitul - you can browse on the net if some Turk, Turciansky and such villages and castles and families, surely you will find a lot. I also have related only through marriage here Turkovic family So Turkovic occurs in Modra.

Warmest regards,

Eva Bartosova

Should be related Modrus and Modor, Modur, Modrer, Modrovsky, Modransky, Modertecz, Modertetsch, Modrovic, z Modry somehow related. Modra exist in Bohemia, this is Modra in Slovakia:

Some owners of Modra were Matus Cak Trenciansky after him to the hands of king, from 1388 Ctibor zo Ctiboric /Stibor zo Stiboric/, later Orsagh family.

Stiborovci family contained these brotheres:
Andrej Pochessy, Stibor - Sedmohrad duke and Mikulas Vilkovsky /Widkosky/ and Marek.

Konrad Modrer /Modransky, z Modry/ with wife Alzbeta is mentioned among owners of Bratislava wineyards 1381.

Stibor zo Stiboric dies 1434 and has no heritors, so for short time comes Modra to ownership of Pavol, son of Ulrich of Cerveny Kamen. He hold Modra only two years and it comes to hands of family Orsagh z Guty. Michal Orsagh de Guth, Modra is ownership of this family over 130 years.

Is mentioned also Andrej and Pavol Modrer 1452 and 1466 and here goes about some payments and Jan Hunady and Pope give some documents in this matter in Bratislava.

Descendants of Pavol Modrer who died cca 1467 are in Velka Ida and Kremnica, for judgements also exkomunicated 1470. Page 27 see more Lehotska, History of Modra.

Page 32 says about Modertecz Albrecht and Juraj and later some page says about Albrecht Modertetsch...cca 1590


Correspondene with Princess Susanna Torquatus von Raditsch:

I also heard the same information about Bartholomew as well. The name for my family came from Bartalan (Bertalan) which is Bartholomew. I have seen it altered to Bartul and Bartol /Barthol as well. It is still a derivative of the same name.

There is a Bartol or Bartalan - Bertalan who was from the Frangipani branch. This was Istvan (Stefan) Bartalan (Bartos-Bartul-Bartol) Count of Veglia and Modrus Ban of Croatia died 1481 married Isotta d'Este in 1446. Isotta lived between (1425 - 1456). The connection of this Bartol or Bartalan (because there are so many of them in the family tree) is that he was Count of Modrus. The year is off from the 1601 you have.

I do not see another Bartol or Bartalan or Bartholomew anywhere else in 1600s. This of course does not mean anything as you know because the records are incomplete. I am sure there is a way to connect the dots.

If they came from Yugoslav area chances are very strong that we are related!



From Princess Susanna Torquatus Von Raditsch:

.....I was doing a bit of research on my family and suddenly came across your posting about my family. It seems you have a lot of information about different branches. I would like to ask for your help if this is possible? My 4th Great Grandfather was Count Jozef Horvath Bartos Kraic Cognac (Kranjac). I don't know when he was born nor who his wife(s) were? They had children. Count Bartolomew Bartos Horvath Frangipani Kraic Cognac (Kranjac) born 22 Mar 1800 and Count Duimo Horvath Bartos Frangipani Kraic Cognac (Kranjac) born 1786 died 04 Dec 1833. I know they had been living in France with family there until French Revolution when they left....